<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Upside to Microsoft From EU Appeal Denial?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2007/09/19/upside-to-microsoft-from-eu-appeal-denial/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2007/09/19/upside-to-microsoft-from-eu-appeal-denial/</link>
	<description>An industry analyst blog looking at software ecosystems and convergence</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2012 10:35:40 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Groklaw article: Microsoft, antitrust and innovation &#171; freedom bits</title>
		<link>http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2007/09/19/upside-to-microsoft-from-eu-appeal-denial/comment-page-1/#comment-518693</link>
		<dc:creator>Groklaw article: Microsoft, antitrust and innovation &#171; freedom bits</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Feb 2009 15:50:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2007/09/19/upside-to-microsoft-from-eu-appeal-denial/#comment-518693</guid>
		<description>[...] Gutierrez of Microsoft is quoted asking &quot;If Microsoft can&#8217;t bundle an audio player with Windows, why can Nokia bundle a camera [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Gutierrez of Microsoft is quoted asking &quot;If Microsoft can&#8217;t bundle an audio player with Windows, why can Nokia bundle a camera [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Alan</title>
		<link>http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2007/09/19/upside-to-microsoft-from-eu-appeal-denial/comment-page-1/#comment-167440</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2007 10:54:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2007/09/19/upside-to-microsoft-from-eu-appeal-denial/#comment-167440</guid>
		<description>Groklaw sums up the nokia analogy quite nicely:

&quot;What antitrust law cares about in this context is leveraging monopolies of one market into another through abusive practices. The Commission found Microsoft employing two abusive practices: bundling and the deliberate obstruction of interoperability.

Horatio Gutierrez of Microsoft is quoted asking &quot;If Microsoft can&#039;t bundle an audio player with Windows, why can Nokia bundle a camera with a phone?&quot; -- the answer seems obvious.

It is questionable whether Nokia has 95% market share in mobile phones, but even if that were the case: There is currently no separate market for mobile phone add-on cameras, so there is no neighboring market to be be distorted by monopoly abuse.

If Nokia had 95% domination and if there were such a market, Nokia might find itself in conflict with antitrust authorities if it took active steps to ensure that a) all its phones always came with the camera included and there is no way to buy the phone separately; b) removal of the camera would be very difficult for a normal user and potentially end up damaging the phone; c) the phone would be built in ways to make sure cameras of other vendors would not work and it would be impossible to buy both together.

Microsoft was found doing all of the above with its media player.&quot;

Read the rest of the analysis here:

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070923170905803

Very good read.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Groklaw sums up the nokia analogy quite nicely:</p>
<p>&#8220;What antitrust law cares about in this context is leveraging monopolies of one market into another through abusive practices. The Commission found Microsoft employing two abusive practices: bundling and the deliberate obstruction of interoperability.</p>
<p>Horatio Gutierrez of Microsoft is quoted asking &#8220;If Microsoft can&#8217;t bundle an audio player with Windows, why can Nokia bundle a camera with a phone?&#8221; &#8212; the answer seems obvious.</p>
<p>It is questionable whether Nokia has 95% market share in mobile phones, but even if that were the case: There is currently no separate market for mobile phone add-on cameras, so there is no neighboring market to be be distorted by monopoly abuse.</p>
<p>If Nokia had 95% domination and if there were such a market, Nokia might find itself in conflict with antitrust authorities if it took active steps to ensure that a) all its phones always came with the camera included and there is no way to buy the phone separately; b) removal of the camera would be very difficult for a normal user and potentially end up damaging the phone; c) the phone would be built in ways to make sure cameras of other vendors would not work and it would be impossible to buy both together.</p>
<p>Microsoft was found doing all of the above with its media player.&#8221;</p>
<p>Read the rest of the analysis here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070923170905803" rel="nofollow">http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070923170905803</a></p>
<p>Very good read.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Рейтинг аналитических блогов &#171; Egor Grebnev&#8217;s blog</title>
		<link>http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2007/09/19/upside-to-microsoft-from-eu-appeal-denial/comment-page-1/#comment-164127</link>
		<dc:creator>Рейтинг аналитических блогов &#171; Egor Grebnev&#8217;s blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 00:12:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2007/09/19/upside-to-microsoft-from-eu-appeal-denial/#comment-164127</guid>
		<description>[...] их интересам. В этом свете довольно любопытны публикации RedMonk о Microsoft, также являющейся одним из их [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] их интересам. В этом свете довольно любопытны публикации RedMonk о Microsoft, также являющейся одним из их [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ric</title>
		<link>http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2007/09/19/upside-to-microsoft-from-eu-appeal-denial/comment-page-1/#comment-162157</link>
		<dc:creator>Ric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Sep 2007 14:29:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2007/09/19/upside-to-microsoft-from-eu-appeal-denial/#comment-162157</guid>
		<description>It will be a sad day when we see undesirable activity as acceptable because it is common - the subject was MS so I stayed on topic ... I never considered them orphans in their &quot;evil&quot;! 

I think you might have seen the light now on the Nokia ambit too ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It will be a sad day when we see undesirable activity as acceptable because it is common &#8211; the subject was MS so I stayed on topic &#8230; I never considered them orphans in their &#8220;evil&#8221;! </p>
<p>I think you might have seen the light now on the Nokia ambit too &#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mike Dolan</title>
		<link>http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2007/09/19/upside-to-microsoft-from-eu-appeal-denial/comment-page-1/#comment-161668</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Dolan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 16:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2007/09/19/upside-to-microsoft-from-eu-appeal-denial/#comment-161668</guid>
		<description>Have to side with Simon on this one James. HHI is merely one way of analyzing monopoly power - the real question is how is that power used. As Simon pointed out, having a monopoloy is not per se illegal - it&#039;s what you do with that power. Now if Nokia had 95% of the cell phone market we could talk. Until then, it&#039;s not the best example. Microsoft could have allowed/encouraged competition in the browser market and kept themselves out of antitrust issues - but they didn&#039;t and abused that power. Unfortunately I see new signs of life that they&#039;re going to start doing it again if you look really close at what&#039;s going on with Silverlight, XAML, and the unfortunate &quot;bundling&quot; they require in order to render what should be a standard... now does Moonlight help Microsoft stay out of court? Do patents prevent any real competition?

Adobe owns much of this market today, not yet a monopolist. The real question is will Microsoft&#039;s monopoly in the OS give them power they could abuse to push Adobe out... it&#039;s the abuse of power that is illegal and which I do think Microsoft needs to keep in check.

Just my opinion of course. A few years back I did take a course on the subject, but by no means would I consider myself an expert in the practice. I think this is good for the industry, and that&#039;s good enough for me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have to side with Simon on this one James. HHI is merely one way of analyzing monopoly power &#8211; the real question is how is that power used. As Simon pointed out, having a monopoloy is not per se illegal &#8211; it&#8217;s what you do with that power. Now if Nokia had 95% of the cell phone market we could talk. Until then, it&#8217;s not the best example. Microsoft could have allowed/encouraged competition in the browser market and kept themselves out of antitrust issues &#8211; but they didn&#8217;t and abused that power. Unfortunately I see new signs of life that they&#8217;re going to start doing it again if you look really close at what&#8217;s going on with Silverlight, XAML, and the unfortunate &#8220;bundling&#8221; they require in order to render what should be a standard&#8230; now does Moonlight help Microsoft stay out of court? Do patents prevent any real competition?</p>
<p>Adobe owns much of this market today, not yet a monopolist. The real question is will Microsoft&#8217;s monopoly in the OS give them power they could abuse to push Adobe out&#8230; it&#8217;s the abuse of power that is illegal and which I do think Microsoft needs to keep in check.</p>
<p>Just my opinion of course. A few years back I did take a course on the subject, but by no means would I consider myself an expert in the practice. I think this is good for the industry, and that&#8217;s good enough for me.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Thomas Otter</title>
		<link>http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2007/09/19/upside-to-microsoft-from-eu-appeal-denial/comment-page-1/#comment-160960</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Otter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 15:57:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2007/09/19/upside-to-microsoft-from-eu-appeal-denial/#comment-160960</guid>
		<description>In my recent rereading of Schumpeter, I was struck by his defence of the big company and even monopolies as  innovators. 

The world is not as simple as it seems, but I&#039;ll not be surprised if this time next year certain search company is facing similar questions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my recent rereading of Schumpeter, I was struck by his defence of the big company and even monopolies as  innovators. </p>
<p>The world is not as simple as it seems, but I&#8217;ll not be surprised if this time next year certain search company is facing similar questions.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: jgovernor</title>
		<link>http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2007/09/19/upside-to-microsoft-from-eu-appeal-denial/comment-page-1/#comment-160926</link>
		<dc:creator>jgovernor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 14:56:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2007/09/19/upside-to-microsoft-from-eu-appeal-denial/#comment-160926</guid>
		<description>I am either far more, or far less, cynical than you guys. I don&#039;t see Microsoft as particularly exceptional. Its a corporation and does what corporations do:

http://www.thecorporation.com/

Simon works for a company that is pretty unusual in its high standards of behaviour. But even Sun gets dinged for some of its activities. 

Companies of all shapes and sizes ignore laws on, for example, pollution and treatment of waste all the time. GE is a good example, as documented in The Corporation. People says its a good green citizen. I am not sure the Hudson River would agree.
http://www.cleanupge.org/gemisdeeds.html

Companies &quot;bend the rules&quot; or break the law all the time, when those laws are seen to interfere with the business of profit. Corporations are about what can be got away with, not just treating all laws as inviolable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am either far more, or far less, cynical than you guys. I don&#8217;t see Microsoft as particularly exceptional. Its a corporation and does what corporations do:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.thecorporation.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.thecorporation.com/</a></p>
<p>Simon works for a company that is pretty unusual in its high standards of behaviour. But even Sun gets dinged for some of its activities. </p>
<p>Companies of all shapes and sizes ignore laws on, for example, pollution and treatment of waste all the time. GE is a good example, as documented in The Corporation. People says its a good green citizen. I am not sure the Hudson River would agree.<br />
<a href="http://www.cleanupge.org/gemisdeeds.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.cleanupge.org/gemisdeeds.html</a></p>
<p>Companies &#8220;bend the rules&#8221; or break the law all the time, when those laws are seen to interfere with the business of profit. Corporations are about what can be got away with, not just treating all laws as inviolable.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ric</title>
		<link>http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2007/09/19/upside-to-microsoft-from-eu-appeal-denial/comment-page-1/#comment-160898</link>
		<dc:creator>Ric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 14:01:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2007/09/19/upside-to-microsoft-from-eu-appeal-denial/#comment-160898</guid>
		<description>James - a couple of points:

If MS took its shareholder responsibility seriously, it would recognise itself as an income play rather than a growth stock and pay more regular and generous dividends.

I don&#039;t know of any &#039;honest&#039; marketplace where improving shareholder return excuses illegal activity

As Simon points out, Nokia might be a monopolist camera manufacturer - no problem in itself. It is abuse of that position that is immoral (and illegal in most Western economies) - if Nokia uses its position to prevent (e.g.) Canon from competing in cameras, then it should find itself in Microsoft&#039;s position - convicted and fined.  

Your point about MS appreciating antitrust law reminds me of the telco market here - here in Aus Telstra often mimics MS behaviour as the dominant telco ... but complains in NZ about Telecom NZ (dominant there) treating them mean.

Finally - I certainly &quot;engage&quot; with the notion that there are pockets of MS doing great things, and not &#039;being evil&#039; ... but personally I wouldn&#039;t accept an offer of employment with MS without significantly more evidence that their business model was changing from the &#039;asymptotically approaching illegality&#039; (I&#039;m not quite as fervent as Simon, but that&#039;s a good line!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James &#8211; a couple of points:</p>
<p>If MS took its shareholder responsibility seriously, it would recognise itself as an income play rather than a growth stock and pay more regular and generous dividends.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know of any &#8216;honest&#8217; marketplace where improving shareholder return excuses illegal activity</p>
<p>As Simon points out, Nokia might be a monopolist camera manufacturer &#8211; no problem in itself. It is abuse of that position that is immoral (and illegal in most Western economies) &#8211; if Nokia uses its position to prevent (e.g.) Canon from competing in cameras, then it should find itself in Microsoft&#8217;s position &#8211; convicted and fined.  </p>
<p>Your point about MS appreciating antitrust law reminds me of the telco market here &#8211; here in Aus Telstra often mimics MS behaviour as the dominant telco &#8230; but complains in NZ about Telecom NZ (dominant there) treating them mean.</p>
<p>Finally &#8211; I certainly &#8220;engage&#8221; with the notion that there are pockets of MS doing great things, and not &#8216;being evil&#8217; &#8230; but personally I wouldn&#8217;t accept an offer of employment with MS without significantly more evidence that their business model was changing from the &#8216;asymptotically approaching illegality&#8217; (I&#8217;m not quite as fervent as Simon, but that&#8217;s a good line!)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: jgovernor</title>
		<link>http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2007/09/19/upside-to-microsoft-from-eu-appeal-denial/comment-page-1/#comment-160896</link>
		<dc:creator>jgovernor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 14:01:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2007/09/19/upside-to-microsoft-from-eu-appeal-denial/#comment-160896</guid>
		<description>ok simon. i get that.

i still think it would be good to have some clearer principles, so we didn&#039;t need to leave it up to the lawyers quite so much. 

i dont think it is reframing per se. i mean the frame is the same. 

i am sorry but i do believe, whatever their reasons for making the arguments they do, that some clarity would be good in this space. I mean look at the current spat between the EU and the DoJ on the subject.

It is odd to me that antitrust law allows market dominance through adjacent market acquisition</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ok simon. i get that.</p>
<p>i still think it would be good to have some clearer principles, so we didn&#8217;t need to leave it up to the lawyers quite so much. </p>
<p>i dont think it is reframing per se. i mean the frame is the same. </p>
<p>i am sorry but i do believe, whatever their reasons for making the arguments they do, that some clarity would be good in this space. I mean look at the current spat between the EU and the DoJ on the subject.</p>
<p>It is odd to me that antitrust law allows market dominance through adjacent market acquisition</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Simon Phipps</title>
		<link>http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2007/09/19/upside-to-microsoft-from-eu-appeal-denial/comment-page-1/#comment-160880</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Phipps</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 13:36:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2007/09/19/upside-to-microsoft-from-eu-appeal-denial/#comment-160880</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m no anti-trust lawyer, so I have no idea at what point Nokia should start to get worried. But I do know the argument you cite from Microsoft is specious and an attempt to reframe the matter so as to distract from their guilt. 

They are a monopolist (which is not illegal) and they have been found guilty in both the US and the EU of abuse of that monopoly (which /is/ illegal). That is nothing to do with innovation and everything to do with the maintenance of an open market. This is not about &quot;bundling&quot; or about &quot;freedom to innovate&quot;; it is about monopoly abuse by a company whose guiding principle is to asymptotically approach illegality. It seems their reframing exercise is working well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m no anti-trust lawyer, so I have no idea at what point Nokia should start to get worried. But I do know the argument you cite from Microsoft is specious and an attempt to reframe the matter so as to distract from their guilt. </p>
<p>They are a monopolist (which is not illegal) and they have been found guilty in both the US and the EU of abuse of that monopoly (which /is/ illegal). That is nothing to do with innovation and everything to do with the maintenance of an open market. This is not about &#8220;bundling&#8221; or about &#8220;freedom to innovate&#8221;; it is about monopoly abuse by a company whose guiding principle is to asymptotically approach illegality. It seems their reframing exercise is working well.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

