• Simple answers to frequently used Slavic arguments
In this section we will attempt to answer a series of arguments used frequently to question the Greek identity of Macedonia.

“Greece officially denied the use of the name Macedonia after the Balkan wars.”
This is a very inaccurate argument. There are several examples of state institutions and private businesses using the name Macedonia which operate in Greece since the early 1900s. These are just a few of them:

The “Macedonia” newspaper (1912)
The Society for Macedonian Studies (1939) [web site]
The museum of ancient Macedonia (1961) [web site]
The museum of the Macedonian struggle (1979) [web site]
Greece has been actively using the name Macedonia since its liberation from the Ottoman empire. If Greece’s official position was to “deny the existence of Macedonia” how would it be possible for hundreds of private companies to be named after Macedonia?

“Greece has changed the “Macedonian” names of locations in the Macedonia region.”
The Greek names are older than the Slavic ones and most of them have their roots in ancient Greece. The Greek names of the towns in Macedonia are also mentioned in the Bible. A characteristic example is Thessaloniki. This city was founded in 315 bc by the Macedonian king Kasssandros and it was named after Alexanders’ half sister - Thessaloniki. How could the Greeks change the name from Solun (as the Slavs claim) to Thessaloniki in 1912 if that was the original name? The name Thessaloniki is even mentioned in the bible by St Paul. Why did he address his letters (epistoles) to the people of Thessaloniki and not the to the people of Solun?
What about the Greek names of towns inside FYROM used during the Ottoman times? Did Greece change them as well?

“Today’s ‘Greeks’ and ancient ‘Hellenes have no relation between them.”
How is it possible for the people who live in the same region, speak the same language and have the same names and culture not to be descendants of the ancient inhabitants of the region? Similarly we could say that today’s Egyptians are not descendants of ancient Egyptians and today’s Chinese people are not descedants of ancient Chinese.
The name ‘Greek’ is in fact ancient as well as the famous philosopher Aristotelis verifies:
“…and she was not there forever, but after the cataclysm of Defkalion, which occurred in the Hellenic area, in fact, in the ancient Hellas, which was around Dodoni, and it changed many times the flow of Acheloos river. In that area live the Selloi and the ones that were once called Graecoi and are now called Hellenes…” [Aristotelis Meteorologika, I, 14]

“There is a large Macedonian minority in Greece”
There is no “Macedonian minority” in Greece because there is no such nationality. There is a small group of people who speak a Slavic dialect which is in fact different from what is claimed to be the “Macedonian language” These people are not a “Macedonian minority” as they consider themselves Greeks. There is also an even smaller group of Slav propagandists who are trying to create a Macedonian minority in Greece. Anyone who didn’t consider him/herself Greek could and should have left Greece during the exchange of populations in 1919.

“One million people in Greece consider themselves Macedonians”
In the 1996 parliament elections in Greece the political party of the people who claim to be a “Macedonian minority” gained 3.485 votes (official result). In the 2000 parliament elections they didn’t take up part at all. Of course there is no doubt of the integrity of the election procedures since Greece is a member of the European Union. If there was such a large number of “Macedonians” in Greece (1/10th) wouldn’t be easy for them to stand up against the “Greek occupation”?

“Greece acquired illegally Aegean Macedonia in 1913″
Greece acquired 51% of Macedonia in 1913 as a result of the treaty of Bucharest. International treaties are not illegal. Furthermore Greece in 1913 was not a powerful country to acquire any land it desired. This land was “given” to Greece because it historically belonged to Greece and its residents were Greek.

“What gives Greece the right to name another country? This issue is straightforward, every country has the right to call itself whatever it wishes.”
This is a misleading statement. The author knows very well why Greece is objecting to the use of the name Macedonia. In fact every country has the right to chose its own name as far as it does not belong to another country’s history. The name Macedonia belongs to the Greek history. Greece has the right to protect its history and heritage.

“Saints Cyril and Methdje (or Kirl and Metodi) were not Greeks but Macedonians.”
Saints Cyrilos and Methodios were Greeks born in Thessaloniki and this is well known to all Christians. Pope John Paul the B’ in an official apostolic homily to the entire Catholic Church proclaimed that Methodius and Cyril “Greek brethren born in Thessaloniki” are consecrated as “heavenly protectors of Europe”. John Paul B’ repeated this statement in a speech delivered in the church of Saint Clements, in Rome. You can see the original document here.

“Greece stole the Macedonian history”
Greece does not ’steal’ history. It has its own lengthy and respected history. It is the only thing that Greece has plenty of it. The Greek history and culture is respected by all the countries in the world. People who don’t have their own history need to ’steal’ someone else’s…

“Linguistic science has at its disposal a very limited quantity of Macedonian words. A very limited quantity in this case is a quantity indeed, that Greeks cannot ignore.”
This argument proves the Greek point that the “Macedonian language” was a Greek a dialect. There only exists “a limited quantity of Macedonian words” because the Macedonian dialect had “limited” differences from the Greek language.
How could it be possible for a separate “ancient Macedonian language” to disappeared after what Alexander had achieved?

“If Philip united and not conquered the Greeks why did Alexander leave 25.000 men of his army in Macedonia when he is about to face the strongest and most numerous army in the world?”
No sensible leader would go on a quest taking ALL his army with him and leaving his homeland unprotected!
And of course he did not leave 25.000 men in Macedonia because he was afraid of the other Greeks. Macedonia had lots of real enemies at its northern border (Illyrians, Dardanians,Paionians etc).

“If Macedonians were Greek then why only 30% of Alexander’s army were Greek?”
The right question to ask is ‘why as many as 30% of Alexander’s army were from the rest of Greece?’ After all Macedonians and Greeks were supposed to be enemies! The Macedonians ‘conquered’ the Greeks according to the Slavic version of the Macedonian history. The fact that a very significant part of Alexander’s army were non-Macedonian Greeks shows the truth.

“Ancient Macedonians did not take part in the Olympic Games”
This is another false statement. It can be easily proved that people from Macedonia took part in the Olympic Games. For a list Macedonians who won the Olympic Games the click here.

“Ancient Macedonians fought against Greece.”
This is another misleading statement. It is well known that the ancient Greek states were largely independed of each other and that often led to wars between them. Some well-known examples are the Peolloponisian was between Athens and Sparti, the Athenians quest in the island of Mitilini, the brutal war between Sparti and Thebes and many more. A war between two ancient Greek regions did not mean that one of them was not Greek.

“There are no ancient monuments written in the Macedonian language because Greek archaeologists destroy them when they are recovered.”
Even if we accept that this is true it still doesn’t explain why aren’t there any monuments in the rest of Macedonia!
What about the ancient monuments in FYROM and Bulgaria?
What about the ancient monuments on Alexander’s route in Asia?
Why aren’t there any “non Greek Macedonian monuments” ?
Oh, I know why! The Greek archaeologists must have destroyed them as well !!!

“If in fact, “Macedonia is Greece”, how come they feel the need to emphasize, to shout, and to proclaim over and over again? After all, we never hear them proclaiming that ‘Thebes is Greece’, or ‘Sparta is Greece’ “.
If the Salvs wanted to name heir country “Republic of Thebes” or “Republic of Sparta” who would shout out “Thebes and Sparta are Greek”. But they are claiming to be Macedonians so we shout that
“MACEDONIA WAS GREEK”
“MACEDONIA IS GREEK”
“MACEDONIA WILL BE FOREVER GREEK”

If you have an argument which is not answered in this page please email us.

http://truth.macedonia.gr © Real Macedonia 2001

Sure…you might have to tell me what a formal briefing is though.
Regards,

Mark

PS I’ve seen Anne’s post asking me to follow-up on her follow-up to this thread, and I’ll respond in the next day or so. It’s incredibly exciting to see this kind of thing being discussed!

Very thought-provoking. Whichever way people go, it seems that they have to have a position on standards. The tricky thing for any company is whether to make a run for it, and try to get your own proprietary software to become ‘the’ standard, or whether to make your software support some standard, but be the best at it.

Adobe is in a not disimilar position to Microsoft with XAML; Microsoft decided that some kind of higher-level language was a good idea for producing applications, but also decided that using existing standards was going to slow them down–so they went on and created their own.

There are some interesting ideas in XAML, and it will certainly appeal to developers who are used to creating Windows applications with C++ or C#. But it’s not so clear whether it will gain traction with the new breed of application developers that are using HTML+JS–the Ajax programmer. In my view these programmers need a language based on XHTML (more below).

Adobe on the other hand needs to defend Flash and PDF against a slew of new technologies from Microsoft, and of course a good way to do this is to try to standardise. But although they have some powerful tools, I have trouble seeing exactly which kind of developer would opt for them, and find it particularly hard to see the Ajax programmer getting embroiled.

Anyway, there is a desktop application framework that uses XHTML and XForms–your criteria for a “once and future run-time”–and it can even process applications written purely in JavaScript. The application framework is called Sidewinder:

http://skimstone.x-port.net/programming-sidewinder

The approach we took with Sidewinder was that XHTML could be regarded as a programming language, especially when combined with XForms and SVG, and perhaps a little script. It’s a powerful combination, since it leverages knowledge that programmers already have from their HTML experience, and by using mark-up to write code (rather than script), applications are created faster. For convenience we’ve called this combination of languages xH:

http://skimstone.x-port.net/xh

Applications produced with Sidewinder can be:

* full desktop applications that can be docked to the side of the screen, auto-hide themselves, be transparent or opaque, and so on;
* run within the browser, as side-bars, toolbars, or ordinary pages;
* embedded within other applications written with other frameworks, such as .NET.

This latter is extremely powerful; you mention the UK insurance industry, and one of our customers within that industry has built a Tablet PC-based system with .NET that manages the process of giving quotes to potential customers, and embeds Sidewinder within the application so that they can create their user interface using XForms, rather than C#. This makes the process of development, distribution, and maintenance so much easier. (For a start they don’t need to recompile the application to update the forms!)

I don’t doubt that Adobe will make headway with Apollo as an easy way to make Flash applications standalone. And of course Microsoft are Microsoft, so XAML will also do well. But I think the phenomenal growth in interest in Ajax shows that developers really do like standards, and frameworks that use XHTML, XForms, SVG and so on will also be in demand.

Of course, that could all be “plucky upstart” speak, but I don’t think so…I really think there are exciting times ahead for standards-based programming.
Regards,

Mark

Mark Birbeck
b: http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/
w: http://skimstone.x-port.net/

I have argued that hybrid ajax/flash apps will be the default:

http://annezelenka.com/2006/11/towards-hybrid-ajaxflashjava-browser-apps

So I’m not thinking that pure DHTML is either desirable or inevitable. There are too many things that people want to do online that can’t be easily done in Ajax.

I’ve connected a bit with Flash/Flex developers since starting to blog about Adobe tools, they are a rabid bunch. They seem to be feeling quite defensive because of the noise about Ajax. The more Adobe can get all of developerdom on their side (excluding Microsoft-only shops), the less Flesh (Flash/Flex) developers inside and outside Adobe will feel the need to defend instead of evangelize. Doubling down on open seems the correct strategy to achieve that.

The satchel was ugly, in my opinion. Very manly. I guess that’s appropriate given their target audience. I left it in the hotel room.