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	<title>Comments on: No wonder The UK doesn&#8217;t make Web 2.0 startups: On Whine Culture</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2006/02/23/no-wonder-the-uk-doesnt-make-web-20-startups-on-whine-culture/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2006/02/23/no-wonder-the-uk-doesnt-make-web-20-startups-on-whine-culture/</link>
	<description>An industry analyst blog looking at software ecosystems and convergence</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:37:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: jon collins</title>
		<link>http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2006/02/23/no-wonder-the-uk-doesnt-make-web-20-startups-on-whine-culture/#comment-1217</link>
		<dc:creator>jon collins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Mar 2006 05:13:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/wp/?p=518#comment-1217</guid>
		<description>I had to read this more than once - I started disagreeing, then I realised I did agree – you’re spot on that we seem unable to turn theory into cash.  

Despite the absence of cash-earning – I think we sort of expect companies to form in the US, so we leave them to it – there’s plenty of innovation in the European software industry. I pointed you to Exoftware, an Irish company – there’s a great page of links on their Web site, and they are leading the “Agile Alliance” in Europe, worth a browse. Similarly I used to participate in an OO conference (OT) that was totally freeform, great stuff. Much was theorising, which was a downside, but on the positive, some of software’s best thinkers are European (Jacobsen, Fowler). You should also take a closer look at the patterns community – very active, very communicative, very SOA and very European! 

Fascinatingly to me, and I’m trying to work out why, this very active community is not too heavily into blogging. I think it might be that the communities formed before blogging, and therefore they’re sticking to older mechanisms for a variety of reasons. Blogging favours individuals, perhaps nobody’s in favour of sticking their heads above the parapets (apart from Grady Booch of course, but that’s an IBM thing!) There’s country differences as well – I did a presentation in Germany yesterday, and when I asked the audience, they all said they read blogs. In the UK financial industry version today in London, nobody did. Very interesting. Perhaps, also, you’re not reading the blogs in French, German, Spanish and therefore not hooked into what’s going on at a local level?

Anyway, all good food for thought.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had to read this more than once - I started disagreeing, then I realised I did agree – you’re spot on that we seem unable to turn theory into cash.  </p>
<p>Despite the absence of cash-earning – I think we sort of expect companies to form in the US, so we leave them to it – there’s plenty of innovation in the European software industry. I pointed you to Exoftware, an Irish company – there’s a great page of links on their Web site, and they are leading the “Agile Alliance” in Europe, worth a browse. Similarly I used to participate in an OO conference (OT) that was totally freeform, great stuff. Much was theorising, which was a downside, but on the positive, some of software’s best thinkers are European (Jacobsen, Fowler). You should also take a closer look at the patterns community – very active, very communicative, very SOA and very European! </p>
<p>Fascinatingly to me, and I’m trying to work out why, this very active community is not too heavily into blogging. I think it might be that the communities formed before blogging, and therefore they’re sticking to older mechanisms for a variety of reasons. Blogging favours individuals, perhaps nobody’s in favour of sticking their heads above the parapets (apart from Grady Booch of course, but that’s an IBM thing!) There’s country differences as well – I did a presentation in Germany yesterday, and when I asked the audience, they all said they read blogs. In the UK financial industry version today in London, nobody did. Very interesting. Perhaps, also, you’re not reading the blogs in French, German, Spanish and therefore not hooked into what’s going on at a local level?</p>
<p>Anyway, all good food for thought.</p>
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		<title>By: james governor</title>
		<link>http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2006/02/23/no-wonder-the-uk-doesnt-make-web-20-startups-on-whine-culture/#comment-1216</link>
		<dc:creator>james governor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Feb 2006 19:00:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/wp/?p=518#comment-1216</guid>
		<description>cheers slabman:

Ian raised an important point, of course... its called a fact. but its not one that undercuts the entire argument. part of the problem i am talking about is confusing the ability to come up with a smart putdown with the ability to build something. Brits often seem to prefer the former to the latter.

and yes of course you're right - but its not just Yanks that call out our whining is it? Don't Aussies and Kiwis love to call us whingeing poms?

being labelled "Whining" though is a major insult in america, unlike here, for all reasons above. Its used to kill debate - "whining democrats", say.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>cheers slabman:</p>
<p>Ian raised an important point, of course&#8230; its called a fact. but its not one that undercuts the entire argument. part of the problem i am talking about is confusing the ability to come up with a smart putdown with the ability to build something. Brits often seem to prefer the former to the latter.</p>
<p>and yes of course you&#8217;re right - but its not just Yanks that call out our whining is it? Don&#8217;t Aussies and Kiwis love to call us whingeing poms?</p>
<p>being labelled &#8220;Whining&#8221; though is a major insult in america, unlike here, for all reasons above. Its used to kill debate - &#8220;whining democrats&#8221;, say.</p>
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		<title>By: Deirdre Molloy</title>
		<link>http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2006/02/23/no-wonder-the-uk-doesnt-make-web-20-startups-on-whine-culture/#comment-1215</link>
		<dc:creator>Deirdre Molloy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Feb 2006 07:39:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/wp/?p=518#comment-1215</guid>
		<description>Ah James, wish I had da funk like Mike Myers and Dan Akroyd...

We've posted some info about the next Beers &#38; Innovation on 30th March. Being only a lowly editor I'm struggling to see the link format for your comments (tried bog standard html coding which works in other blogs but no joy!) so Google it in the meantime and i'll mail ya.

We've an open call for speakers too (2 speakers max to give the assembled plenty of time for input, as is best) so let me know soon if you've any suggestions as it'll all be sorted before I go off to SXSW!

Hope some of you guys - yes I was at Future Of Web Apps too so I know - (and quiet gal readers!) will come along, have few drinks and chew the fat...

Deirdre

ps. Damn those Irish names, so hard to spell.. ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah James, wish I had da funk like Mike Myers and Dan Akroyd&#8230;</p>
<p>We&#8217;ve posted some info about the next Beers &amp; Innovation on 30th March. Being only a lowly editor I&#8217;m struggling to see the link format for your comments (tried bog standard html coding which works in other blogs but no joy!) so Google it in the meantime and i&#8217;ll mail ya.</p>
<p>We&#8217;ve an open call for speakers too (2 speakers max to give the assembled plenty of time for input, as is best) so let me know soon if you&#8217;ve any suggestions as it&#8217;ll all be sorted before I go off to SXSW!</p>
<p>Hope some of you guys - yes I was at Future Of Web Apps too so I know - (and quiet gal readers!) will come along, have few drinks and chew the fat&#8230;</p>
<p>Deirdre</p>
<p>ps. Damn those Irish names, so hard to spell.. <img src='http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/wp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2006/02/23/no-wonder-the-uk-doesnt-make-web-20-startups-on-whine-culture/#comment-1214</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Feb 2006 05:52:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/wp/?p=518#comment-1214</guid>
		<description>James,

It's really interesting you make some of these points. I think to some extent it is valid, but I am not sure I agree the reasons. In my experience the American booms start in the energy charged, innovate or die enivronments surrounding such places as Silicon valley. British IT tends to be more financial institutions and stiff upper lips.

I was also at that summit and I really believe that someone needs to give the English some gusto to get them going. All the best stuff selling out the states doesn't help. Cal is obviously (utterly utterly unmistakalby) British, and he's not the only bright spark I know that is stateside. If all our inspirational talent needs to leave as you suggested to succeed, then the other 90% will never get pulled up by their bootlaces. 

That said, I applied for a job in the valley no less than a week ago. I guess I'm a traitor too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James,</p>
<p>It&#8217;s really interesting you make some of these points. I think to some extent it is valid, but I am not sure I agree the reasons. In my experience the American booms start in the energy charged, innovate or die enivronments surrounding such places as Silicon valley. British IT tends to be more financial institutions and stiff upper lips.</p>
<p>I was also at that summit and I really believe that someone needs to give the English some gusto to get them going. All the best stuff selling out the states doesn&#8217;t help. Cal is obviously (utterly utterly unmistakalby) British, and he&#8217;s not the only bright spark I know that is stateside. If all our inspirational talent needs to leave as you suggested to succeed, then the other 90% will never get pulled up by their bootlaces. </p>
<p>That said, I applied for a job in the valley no less than a week ago. I guess I&#8217;m a traitor too.</p>
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		<title>By: christopher baus</title>
		<link>http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2006/02/23/no-wonder-the-uk-doesnt-make-web-20-startups-on-whine-culture/#comment-1213</link>
		<dc:creator>christopher baus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Feb 2006 04:02:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/wp/?p=518#comment-1213</guid>
		<description>My email bounced?  Wow.  I have some pretty stringent spam filtering.  Try chris_baus@yahoo.com.  

Thanks,

Christopher</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My email bounced?  Wow.  I have some pretty stringent spam filtering.  Try <a href="mailto:chris_baus@yahoo.com">chris_baus@yahoo.com</a>.  </p>
<p>Thanks,</p>
<p>Christopher</p>
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		<title>By: james governor</title>
		<link>http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2006/02/23/no-wonder-the-uk-doesnt-make-web-20-startups-on-whine-culture/#comment-1212</link>
		<dc:creator>james governor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Feb 2006 01:19:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/wp/?p=518#comment-1212</guid>
		<description>andre - you make a great extra point there. stone throwers. on that note there is another community that gets paid for "whining"... my community - industry analysts tend to be very very good at knocking things down but not so great at building them up. that is consulting analysts. We do of course have our share of cheerleaders and bunker heads. but analysts, in my opinion the better ones, are usually more about a debunker mentality than a bunker mentality. brits, as it happens, are often good debunkers and piss-takers, but they aren't so good at building things.

Maybe Britain is post capitalist. The British started it, so they ran out of steam first.

Ian - is Carson a UK company? My mistake. that is very interesting. As i said on my blog at the time Ryan really won me round, he did a great job and i have a great deal of respect for his open and transparent approach. He is of course American- which makes his UK contribution all the more valuable. Cheers Ryan. And thanks to Ian for pointing it out. Big Up Ryan and Gillian! 
&lt;a href="http://www.carsonsystems.com/about.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;http://www.carsonsystems.com/about.html&lt;/a&gt;

Dierdre - you get a You Got The Funk Award. 

ric - nice one! its a post-Commonwealth hangover?

cheers christoper. i send you a long private email in response but it bounced?

Back to all the Canadians in the house. Like i say great standup comedians tend to be debunker people. Canada generates a lot of great standups per capita. Hollywood loves Canadians. 

California is still the global starmaker. That is true in a lot of industries and i suppose starting a company up is no different, in some ways, than becoming a movie star. you have to go where the money is. That is California. There is more money splashing around there than anywhere. hollywood and high tech - but Star and production systems defining the world's mores and economy. Not bad for one state, eh? Imagine how well it could do it it left the union? Just kidding folks. Sorry- i am trying to keep politics of the blog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>andre - you make a great extra point there. stone throwers. on that note there is another community that gets paid for &#8220;whining&#8221;&#8230; my community - industry analysts tend to be very very good at knocking things down but not so great at building them up. that is consulting analysts. We do of course have our share of cheerleaders and bunker heads. but analysts, in my opinion the better ones, are usually more about a debunker mentality than a bunker mentality. brits, as it happens, are often good debunkers and piss-takers, but they aren&#8217;t so good at building things.</p>
<p>Maybe Britain is post capitalist. The British started it, so they ran out of steam first.</p>
<p>Ian - is Carson a UK company? My mistake. that is very interesting. As i said on my blog at the time Ryan really won me round, he did a great job and i have a great deal of respect for his open and transparent approach. He is of course American- which makes his UK contribution all the more valuable. Cheers Ryan. And thanks to Ian for pointing it out. Big Up Ryan and Gillian!<br />
<a href="http://www.carsonsystems.com/about.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.carsonsystems.com/about.html</a></p>
<p>Dierdre - you get a You Got The Funk Award. </p>
<p>ric - nice one! its a post-Commonwealth hangover?</p>
<p>cheers christoper. i send you a long private email in response but it bounced?</p>
<p>Back to all the Canadians in the house. Like i say great standup comedians tend to be debunker people. Canada generates a lot of great standups per capita. Hollywood loves Canadians. </p>
<p>California is still the global starmaker. That is true in a lot of industries and i suppose starting a company up is no different, in some ways, than becoming a movie star. you have to go where the money is. That is California. There is more money splashing around there than anywhere. hollywood and high tech - but Star and production systems defining the world&#8217;s mores and economy. Not bad for one state, eh? Imagine how well it could do it it left the union? Just kidding folks. Sorry- i am trying to keep politics of the blog.</p>
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		<title>By: slabman</title>
		<link>http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2006/02/23/no-wonder-the-uk-doesnt-make-web-20-startups-on-whine-culture/#comment-1211</link>
		<dc:creator>slabman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Feb 2006 00:55:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/wp/?p=518#comment-1211</guid>
		<description>Generalisation time: American whines about Brits being whiners! We Brits are great independent creative thinkers but we have a historic, class-based distrust of people who openly say 'I want to make money'. So we're crap at commercialising our ideas. That's changing, but what we also do well is display a dry sense of humour which undercuts those entrepreneurial types who take themselves too seriously. Ian Fenn wields this to perfection with a one-liner that deftly pulls the rug out from under this whole complaint.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Generalisation time: American whines about Brits being whiners! We Brits are great independent creative thinkers but we have a historic, class-based distrust of people who openly say &#8216;I want to make money&#8217;. So we&#8217;re crap at commercialising our ideas. That&#8217;s changing, but what we also do well is display a dry sense of humour which undercuts those entrepreneurial types who take themselves too seriously. Ian Fenn wields this to perfection with a one-liner that deftly pulls the rug out from under this whole complaint.</p>
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		<title>By: Andre Charland</title>
		<link>http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2006/02/23/no-wonder-the-uk-doesnt-make-web-20-startups-on-whine-culture/#comment-1210</link>
		<dc:creator>Andre Charland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Feb 2006 00:28:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/wp/?p=518#comment-1210</guid>
		<description>Brits definitely don't have a stanglehold on it.  We can replace brits with "canadians" for the most part.  I guess we've adopted some of that like our cousins down under.  It's always easy to be the guy on the sidelines poking holes in ideas, I'm really good at it, but it's a lot f#$in' harder to get off your rump take a chance and go get something done!  Thanks for the post James!   kind of a kick you in the arse type of motivation;-)

One thing I will say about the Vancouver tech start up scene is we have an abundance of tech/r&#38;d talent but we lack tech marketing and biz dev people!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brits definitely don&#8217;t have a stanglehold on it.  We can replace brits with &#8220;canadians&#8221; for the most part.  I guess we&#8217;ve adopted some of that like our cousins down under.  It&#8217;s always easy to be the guy on the sidelines poking holes in ideas, I&#8217;m really good at it, but it&#8217;s a lot f#$in&#8217; harder to get off your rump take a chance and go get something done!  Thanks for the post James!   kind of a kick you in the arse type of motivation;-)</p>
<p>One thing I will say about the Vancouver tech start up scene is we have an abundance of tech/r&amp;d talent but we lack tech marketing and biz dev people!</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Fenn</title>
		<link>http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2006/02/23/no-wonder-the-uk-doesnt-make-web-20-startups-on-whine-culture/#comment-1209</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Fenn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Feb 2006 22:45:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/wp/?p=518#comment-1209</guid>
		<description>The last time I looked, Carson Workshops was a UK company...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The last time I looked, Carson Workshops was a UK company&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Ric</title>
		<link>http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2006/02/23/no-wonder-the-uk-doesnt-make-web-20-startups-on-whine-culture/#comment-1208</link>
		<dc:creator>Ric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Feb 2006 22:44:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/wp/?p=518#comment-1208</guid>
		<description>"make a contribution ..." - a phrase I heard a long time ago and fell in love with, which has the same intent: "you have to participate in your own redemption..."

And I don't think you Brits have a stranglehold on the entitlement culture either - plenty of it Down Under as well!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;make a contribution &#8230;&#8221; - a phrase I heard a long time ago and fell in love with, which has the same intent: &#8220;you have to participate in your own redemption&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>And I don&#8217;t think you Brits have a stranglehold on the entitlement culture either - plenty of it Down Under as well!</p>
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