Comments on: Hansel and Gretel and the SOA Forest: Why is IT so Grimm? http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2005/11/16/hansel-and-gretel-and-the-soa-forest-why-is-it-so-grimm/ An industry analyst blog looking at software ecosystems and convergence Fri, 03 Feb 2012 10:35:40 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: James Governor http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2005/11/16/hansel-and-gretel-and-the-soa-forest-why-is-it-so-grimm/comment-page-1/#comment-771 James Governor Mon, 21 Nov 2005 15:49:38 +0000 http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/wp/?p=402#comment-771 good point jeff. who are we - are we selling magic beans? are or we chicken licken? good point jeff. who are we – are we selling magic beans? are or we chicken licken?

]]> By: Jeff Schneider http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2005/11/16/hansel-and-gretel-and-the-soa-forest-why-is-it-so-grimm/comment-page-1/#comment-770 Jeff Schneider Sun, 20 Nov 2005 01:49:42 +0000 http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/wp/?p=402#comment-770 James, Nice post on SOA consultants. Could you do a post on SOA Analysts? Jeff James, Nice post on SOA consultants. Could you do a post on SOA Analysts?
Jeff

]]> By: Bruce Dillon http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2005/11/16/hansel-and-gretel-and-the-soa-forest-why-is-it-so-grimm/comment-page-1/#comment-769 Bruce Dillon Fri, 18 Nov 2005 04:40:43 +0000 http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/wp/?p=402#comment-769 Looking at other people's code before writing your own is a very different thing than re-using objects and services "as-is". I agree that it will take a deeper overhaul (architecture process, dev process, arch & dev roles, etc) for widespread success... it would be interesting to develop a "critical mass index" - the confluence of things that must occur industry-wide for SOA projects to fulfill their promise, and to assess our current state. Looking at other people’s code before writing your own is a very different thing than re-using objects and services “as-is”. I agree that it will take a deeper overhaul (architecture process, dev process, arch & dev roles, etc) for widespread success… it would be interesting to develop a “critical mass index” – the confluence of things that must occur industry-wide for SOA projects to fulfill their promise, and to assess our current state.

]]> By: james governor http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2005/11/16/hansel-and-gretel-and-the-soa-forest-why-is-it-so-grimm/comment-page-1/#comment-768 james governor Thu, 17 Nov 2005 20:36:08 +0000 http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/wp/?p=402#comment-768 there is certainly an awful lot of JBORC out there. JBORO too - just a bunch of reusable objects... ! the question on "plagiarism" is an interesting one, because it certainly seems to me that view source really is part of the web design and programming revolution. Seeing how things are done, and adding to that, is how so many important development proceed now, and a lot of kids have learned programming after seeing a few angle brackets and thinking I could do that. it certainly seems absurd you could disciplined for using a code sample - i guess the key is what you added to it, or how you used it... I fundamentally agree with Fraxas that view source style development learning is not going to teach good architectural practice. which takes me back to the mainframe and why its such a great compsci teaching platform. Because of the discipline associated with treating resources as constraints... there is certainly an awful lot of JBORC out there.

JBORO too – just a bunch of reusable objects… !

the question on “plagiarism” is an interesting one, because it certainly seems to me that view source really is part of the web design and programming revolution. Seeing how things are done, and adding to that, is how so many important development proceed now, and a lot of kids have learned programming after seeing a few angle brackets and thinking I could do that.

it certainly seems absurd you could disciplined for using a code sample – i guess the key is what you added to it, or how you used it…

I fundamentally agree with Fraxas that view source style development learning is not going to teach good architectural practice.

which takes me back to the mainframe and why its such a great compsci teaching platform. Because of the discipline associated with treating resources as constraints…

]]> By: Fraxas http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2005/11/16/hansel-and-gretel-and-the-soa-forest-why-is-it-so-grimm/comment-page-1/#comment-767 Fraxas Thu, 17 Nov 2005 20:18:57 +0000 http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/wp/?p=402#comment-767 I think it takes a deeper overhaul than that, Bruce. Given the extent to which basic concepts of engineering -- proper use of source control, componentized design, simplest-possible approaches, et cetera -- are NOT taught in computer science departments, the academic concept of plagiarism is actually not a huge worry. After all, it's relatively easy to teach new grads that it's OK to copy work, since they like to do that even in school. I'm reminded of a quote from Djykstra (might have butchered the name): "Computer science is about computers the way astronomy is about telescopes." Which is great, and even true -- but software engineering *is* about telescopes. And universities are teaching computer science instead. I think it takes a deeper overhaul than that, Bruce. Given the extent to which basic concepts of engineering — proper use of source control, componentized design, simplest-possible approaches, et cetera — are NOT taught in computer science departments, the academic concept of plagiarism is actually not a huge worry. After all, it’s relatively easy to teach new grads that it’s OK to copy work, since they like to do that even in school.

I’m reminded of a quote from Djykstra (might have butchered the name): “Computer science is about computers the way astronomy is about telescopes.” Which is great, and even true — but software engineering *is* about telescopes. And universities are teaching computer science instead.

]]> By: Bruce Dillon http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2005/11/16/hansel-and-gretel-and-the-soa-forest-why-is-it-so-grimm/comment-page-1/#comment-766 Bruce Dillon Thu, 17 Nov 2005 05:13:06 +0000 http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/wp/?p=402#comment-766 What's to prevent intended SOAs from becoming JBOWS (just a bunch of web services - from your mainframe blog) the logical evolution of JBORC (just a bunch of reusable code)? Every programmer writes reusable code, but not enough reuse it. I fear it will take an overhaul of the university education system to change it. Today, if a student "reuses" code, they are expelled for plagiarism. How can they be trained to design simple solutions that reuse existing code and services? What’s to prevent intended SOAs from becoming JBOWS (just a bunch of web services – from your mainframe blog) the logical evolution of JBORC (just a bunch of reusable code)? Every programmer writes reusable code, but not enough reuse it. I fear it will take an overhaul of the university education system to change it. Today, if a student “reuses” code, they are expelled for plagiarism. How can they be trained to design simple solutions that reuse existing code and services?

]]>