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	<title>Comments on: A POX on my house: One SOAP doesn&#8217;t fit all</title>
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		<link>http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2005/02/18/a-pox-on-my-house-one-soap-doesnt-fit-all/comment-page-1/#comment-139</link>
		<dc:creator>&#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 14:08:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>For decades, we&#039;ve believed in building relationships through face-to-face interaction, and adhering to a strategy of recommending quality &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501; investments that have proven themselves over time. &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501; is an advanced Website &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501; service that ensures the reputation and uptime of your e-business. News stories about &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501; bring credibility that advertising cannot give. Thank You For Your Interest In &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501; We Have Been Serving Quality &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501; Since 1996. &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501;, specializes in database software and &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501; applications. visit the largest source of great &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501; and more. Updated every Friday! For decades, we&#039;ve believed in building relationships through face-to-face interaction, and adhering to a strategy of recommending quality &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501; investments that have proven themselves over time. We are the one-stop source for &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501;, We encourage you to celebrate the spirit of the holiday season, and enjoy the rich content throughout our website &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501;. Be part of the &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501; experience. Share your opinion about the show on our &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501; Forum. &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501; is the largest &lt;a href=&quot;http://international.barnet.ws/bar-man.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://international.barnet.ws/bar-man.html&lt;/a&gt; organization in Oregon and one of the largest writers&#039; organizations in the United States. 
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For decades, we&#8217;ve believed in building relationships through face-to-face interaction, and adhering to a strategy of recommending quality &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501; investments that have proven themselves over time. &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501; is an advanced Website &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501; service that ensures the reputation and uptime of your e-business. News stories about &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501; bring credibility that advertising cannot give. Thank You For Your Interest In &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501; We Have Been Serving Quality &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501; Since 1996. &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501;, specializes in database software and &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501; applications. visit the largest source of great &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501; and more. Updated every Friday! For decades, we&#8217;ve believed in building relationships through face-to-face interaction, and adhering to a strategy of recommending quality &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501; investments that have proven themselves over time. We are the one-stop source for &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501;, We encourage you to celebrate the spirit of the holiday season, and enjoy the rich content throughout our website &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501;. Be part of the &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501; experience. Share your opinion about the show on our &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501; Forum. &#1489;&#1512;&#1502;&#1504;&#1497;&#1501; is the largest <a href="http://international.barnet.ws/bar-man.html" rel="nofollow">http://international.barnet.ws/bar-man.html</a> organization in Oregon and one of the largest writers&#8217; organizations in the United States.</p>
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		<title>By: James Governor</title>
		<link>http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2005/02/18/a-pox-on-my-house-one-soap-doesnt-fit-all/comment-page-1/#comment-138</link>
		<dc:creator>James Governor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:05:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/wp/?p=144#comment-138</guid>
		<description>All programming is niche programming-- perfect - that is the Long Tail of software development</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All programming is niche programming&#8211; perfect &#8211; that is the Long Tail of software development</p>
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		<title>By: Kurt Cagle</title>
		<link>http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2005/02/18/a-pox-on-my-house-one-soap-doesnt-fit-all/comment-page-1/#comment-137</link>
		<dc:creator>Kurt Cagle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Feb 2005 08:43:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/wp/?p=144#comment-137</guid>
		<description>Actually, I would disagree with this, as it points out to me one of the central tenets of HTTP in the first place - there are many times where assuming unreliability is a given provides for far greater robustness in the face of real world problems.

The web communication that occurred after the Tsunami could make very few assumptions about the reliability of the network - even the assumption that there wouldn&#039;t need to be at some point someone hand-copying a file on a piece of paper and taking it to some other computer because the information involved was critical but the physical infrastructure was no longer there.

RESTful solutions work in situations like that because the computing world is heterogeneous, because often times the most important information being passed is that which says that a child has been found alive, or that survivors should gather at such and such a location, and you are dealing with ancient systems that don&#039;t have the latest in MS-WS* but do have a workable web server stack.

If I have a choice between acting as a node for sending an RSS feed (one that may not even be &quot;safe&quot; XML) knowing that it will likely get there or have the relevant messages get &quot;stuck&quot; in some server because they didn&#039;t install the latest service pack upgrade, then yeah, I&#039;d definitely take that RSS feed.

I think that is a big problem with much of the thinking coming out of Redmond, though I also agree here that the recognition that SOAP is a niche technology (and that all programming is niche programming) is  welcome. There tends to be this assumption that complexity adds to reliability, when in fact the more tightly focused a given piece of technology becomes, the less reliable it usually ends up being. This is a lesson as true of programming as it is with the argument of Ferrari&#039;s vs. VW Beetles. A Ferrari is a performance driver&#039;s dream, but it was so optimized for performance that they are in the shop as often as they are on the road. Nobody was likely to be doing high speed racing in a VW Bug, but they were easily the most easily maintainable car on the planet at the time - with this factor, as much as their affordability, being the reason for their general popularity.

Most people don&#039;t NEED the power and performance of SOAP enabled web services and the WS-* stack. More power to Microsoft to recognize that there IS a need there for those that do, and that they are likely to be the customers that Microsoft is most interested in pursuing because they are also the wealthiest, but don&#039;t expect the rest of the world to greedily jump to SOAP because of the expectation that they are more &quot;reliable&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, I would disagree with this, as it points out to me one of the central tenets of HTTP in the first place &#8211; there are many times where assuming unreliability is a given provides for far greater robustness in the face of real world problems.</p>
<p>The web communication that occurred after the Tsunami could make very few assumptions about the reliability of the network &#8211; even the assumption that there wouldn&#8217;t need to be at some point someone hand-copying a file on a piece of paper and taking it to some other computer because the information involved was critical but the physical infrastructure was no longer there.</p>
<p>RESTful solutions work in situations like that because the computing world is heterogeneous, because often times the most important information being passed is that which says that a child has been found alive, or that survivors should gather at such and such a location, and you are dealing with ancient systems that don&#8217;t have the latest in MS-WS* but do have a workable web server stack.</p>
<p>If I have a choice between acting as a node for sending an RSS feed (one that may not even be &#8220;safe&#8221; XML) knowing that it will likely get there or have the relevant messages get &#8220;stuck&#8221; in some server because they didn&#8217;t install the latest service pack upgrade, then yeah, I&#8217;d definitely take that RSS feed.</p>
<p>I think that is a big problem with much of the thinking coming out of Redmond, though I also agree here that the recognition that SOAP is a niche technology (and that all programming is niche programming) is  welcome. There tends to be this assumption that complexity adds to reliability, when in fact the more tightly focused a given piece of technology becomes, the less reliable it usually ends up being. This is a lesson as true of programming as it is with the argument of Ferrari&#8217;s vs. VW Beetles. A Ferrari is a performance driver&#8217;s dream, but it was so optimized for performance that they are in the shop as often as they are on the road. Nobody was likely to be doing high speed racing in a VW Bug, but they were easily the most easily maintainable car on the planet at the time &#8211; with this factor, as much as their affordability, being the reason for their general popularity.</p>
<p>Most people don&#8217;t NEED the power and performance of SOAP enabled web services and the WS-* stack. More power to Microsoft to recognize that there IS a need there for those that do, and that they are likely to be the customers that Microsoft is most interested in pursuing because they are also the wealthiest, but don&#8217;t expect the rest of the world to greedily jump to SOAP because of the expectation that they are more &#8220;reliable&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Champion</title>
		<link>http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2005/02/18/a-pox-on-my-house-one-soap-doesnt-fit-all/comment-page-1/#comment-136</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Champion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:33:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/wp/?p=144#comment-136</guid>
		<description>&quot;On the where human lives matter question i will push back very hard. The Tsunami was an awful event; it tore us all up. ... Forget transactions for a minute. RSS was instrumental in aid efforts, as much as traditional reporting. Blogs have been instruments of freedom in places like Iran and Iraq. Human lives are most definitely at stake, and no amount of hardcore transactional web services is going to mean a hill of beans to getting things done in tough scary environments like these.&quot;

Fully agree, and sorry that I phrased my piece in such a way as to create any confusion about this.  I was trying to make the point that in those situations &quot;where lives are at stake&quot; AND the reliability, transactionality, security, etc. of web services significantly affect the stakes, that might be a better niche for WS-* than for REST.  Integrating public safety systems might (I don&#039;t claim to know this domain!) be an example:  Would you feel safer knowing that your local 911 system communicates with your local police, ambulance, fire, etc. agencies via SOAP+WS-ReliableMessaging+WS-SEcurity, or via a bunch of POX files that passed across legacy boundaries with GET and POST + a lot of application-level code to route and secure the messages? I&#039;m sure Mark Baker can sketch out a &quot;gorgeous&quot; scenario for how all this MIGHT work RESTfully :-) , but AFAIK the real world developers in that domain are betting on WS-*.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;On the where human lives matter question i will push back very hard. The Tsunami was an awful event; it tore us all up. &#8230; Forget transactions for a minute. RSS was instrumental in aid efforts, as much as traditional reporting. Blogs have been instruments of freedom in places like Iran and Iraq. Human lives are most definitely at stake, and no amount of hardcore transactional web services is going to mean a hill of beans to getting things done in tough scary environments like these.&#8221;</p>
<p>Fully agree, and sorry that I phrased my piece in such a way as to create any confusion about this.  I was trying to make the point that in those situations &#8220;where lives are at stake&#8221; AND the reliability, transactionality, security, etc. of web services significantly affect the stakes, that might be a better niche for WS-* than for REST.  Integrating public safety systems might (I don&#8217;t claim to know this domain!) be an example:  Would you feel safer knowing that your local 911 system communicates with your local police, ambulance, fire, etc. agencies via SOAP+WS-ReliableMessaging+WS-SEcurity, or via a bunch of POX files that passed across legacy boundaries with GET and POST + a lot of application-level code to route and secure the messages? I&#8217;m sure Mark Baker can sketch out a &#8220;gorgeous&#8221; scenario for how all this MIGHT work RESTfully <img src='http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/wp/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />  , but AFAIK the real world developers in that domain are betting on WS-*.</p>
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		<title>By: James Governor</title>
		<link>http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/2005/02/18/a-pox-on-my-house-one-soap-doesnt-fit-all/comment-page-1/#comment-135</link>
		<dc:creator>James Governor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Feb 2005 03:42:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redmonk.com/jgovernor/wp/?p=144#comment-135</guid>
		<description>i can spell. i just have problems when i am trying to get home thinking of those lovely portuguese hills. will someone please make a decent WYSIWYG blogging client with link heuristics. thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i can spell. i just have problems when i am trying to get home thinking of those lovely portuguese hills. will someone please make a decent WYSIWYG blogging client with link heuristics. thanks.</p>
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